We used a Starcraft Camper trailer for years both on trips to east and west coasts but mainly for camping at Waskesiu. We loved ever minute of it---so much so that when we go to the lake now and motel it it's not half as enjoyable We had to sell it last year after about 20 years of camping and touring so I really think we're a little expert on what to look for---I'll list a few observations
Starcraft is a very good model--to me the Cadillac of Fold Downs
Although you can get the power lifting type ( I think they're mainly american) it's not really necessary. Unless you're continually on the move once you put it up you're set.That in itself is no big job
You'll want one with a 3 way fridge---AC, Dc and propane. They run most efficiently on propane---The DC you connect to when you're on the move. Of course you'll need a load leveller hitch and if your vehicle can handle it you'll find it quite economical to tow. As an example our past vehicle with a 305 V8 gave us about 24 MPG without the trailer and about 19-20 towing it. That was our experience
A furnace is optional and although you may not need it very often it's sure nice to have on those cool evenings
Very Important---An awning and an "ADD a ROOM" if you want a little extra room and camping is much more pleasant with one.
Depending on where you camp a Porta Potti is a good investment
(What a wealth of knowledge my friends have!)
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From Bob:
I don't have any personal experience with pop-ups. My personal experience was with a 23-24 foot cabin trailer that we used quite a bit for maybe 10 years. It was a "Security" brand and was quite a decent middle-of-the road trailer in quality, I believe. It was not a 5th wheel. For most of the time we pulled it with a 3/4 ton Dodge crew-cab pickup (4 full doors 2 full bench seats, short box) with a 360 V8 engine and an automatic transmission. We still have that pickup if you want to buy it! Then later we used a Ford Explorer a little but it was barely up to the task. Some other personal experience that I have which may be relevant is many, many hours on farm tractors pulling heavy loads, and when I was young we used gasoline engine tractors and later converted to diesel. Also I have experience pulling trailers or other loads behind farm tractors on the road. I suppose I heard a few things about pop-ups over the years, but that may be of limited value. Anyway, here are a few comments, which may or may not be relevant to you.
About engines and heavy loads
Most gasoline engines are not really built for constant heavy loads. A car or pickup engine normally is under heavy load only during acceleration. Most of the time it is almost idling, even if at high speed. So they don't need to plan for continuous heavy load. Things like cooling systems aren't necessarily built for it. A trailer-towing package will remedy that to some extent, but maybe it still isn't really heavy-duty.
A gasoline engine expected to work long and hard will need more tune-ups, or you will want more. For example, the spark plug wires seem to deteriorate faster, or at least their weakness becomes much more obvious. So things like plugs and wires should be replaced more often.
A gasoline engine can burn more fuel, especially if not in good tune. There were times when I could almost see the fuel gauge move as I drove our pickup and trailer. And that Dodge 360 was actually better than most competitive V8 engines on fuel. The few times we measured it, that pickup got around 14 mpg empty and 9-10 mpg towing the trailer.
I prefer a diesel engine for a job like that. They run better. They need less tuning, much less I would say. Mind you, when they do need work it is more expensive. They burn less fuel. They are all around more reliable, IF you have a good one.
Although I've never had one, I think the Cummins inline 6 cyl diesel in the newer Dodge pickups is a good engine. I've heard a few things, nothing but good. On the other hand I wouldn't trust any of the V8 diesels from Ford, GM, etc. Maybe some newer ones are good. And probably a Daimler/Mercedes one would be good, if one was available. But the only one that I know about that I'm pretty sure is good is the Cummins. And I think it is excellent. In general, inline engines seem to have better reputations than V engines. At a farm sale a used V8 tractor will sell for much less than a 6 cylinder. I have the impression truckers feel the same way. Most highway truck-tractors use 6 cylinder inline engines.
About transmissions and heavy loads
Similar to engines, many car or pickup transmissions can give questionable service under steady heavy load.
Automatic transmissions need more cooling for loads. On the pickup I installed a large oil cooler and an oil temperature gauge for the transmission. It worked well, and we never had a problem. The old Dodge 3-speed automatic was/is a reliable rugged transmission, which helped.
Earlier Dodge/Cummins pickups have transmissions which are hardly up to the engine. A farmer friend of mine has one with a 4-speed manual transmission. He likes the truck, but as of now he has lost 1st and 4th gears in the transmission, and he didn't even pull trailers all that much. I believe newer ones are OK, at least some of the transmission options are OK.
About towing trailers (or cars?)
There are some obvious issues about towing, such as length of the rig, and the fact that backing up is more difficult. Actually with a 2-wheel trailer backing up straight isn't too bad, but it takes practice. A 4-wheel trailer (which a towed car might amount to being) is extremely difficult to back up for any ordinary driver.
Less obvious is that any trailer has a tendency to "whip" back and forth under certain conditions. Sometimes a harmonic oscillation can build, and it can quickly become impossible to control and become extremely dangerous. That's why they have anti-sway bars on hitches. We can talk more if you are interested. Longer wheelbase helps. A 5th wheel setup helps, too.
Another danger is that the rig can jackknife. Factors that can help here are a longer, heavier tow vehicle, a longer trailer, and a good balanced braking setup.
When I first started towing the camper trailer I was very surprised how heavy a load it seemed to be. Its weight and wind resistance was more than I expected.
On the other hand, the rig we had with the pickup performed excellently. The trailer followed in a rock-solid fashion. In all the years I never felt it even start to misbehave. It didn't whip. It didn't jackknife. It didn't give me any uneasy feelings (and I have enough experience to recognize some signs). In fact, although I know a 5th-wheel setup is better for towing I never saw any reason to wish I had one. The 5th wheel wastes space in the trailer, and it wastes space in the box of the pickup. I never felt our trailing setup had shortcomings that would be worth the sacrifices in space for a 5th wheel.
BUT, the Explorer was a different kettle of fish. It has a shorter wheelbase and is also narrower than the pickup. I believe it is lighter, although it is heavier than many vehicles. Anyway, it never felt rock-solid like the pickup. I could feel the tow vehicle yaw slightly back and forth sometimes. Nothing ever happened (I was careful) but I was always much more conscious of the possible problems driving the Explorer than driving the pickup. I wouldn't recommend that particular combination. Also, the transmission was a concern. The transmission fluid began to show signs of overheating. And then the engine developed a burnt valve. It could have been a defect (Ford covered half the repair cost), but I think the heavy load was part of the situation, even though we seldom towed the trailer. The final valve failure came while towing.
General comments about living with trailers, maybe some applies to motor homes, too
We liked the trailer. One great thing is that you don't have to pack and unpack when you move. You can just travel. And you can stay lots of places there is no hotel.
On the other hand moving is a bit of a pain, because when you stop you really should level the trailer or motor home and put jacks under the 4 corners. I think some new ones have semi-automatic jacks, which would be a great blessing. In most Saskatchewan trailer parks you had to move to empty the sewage tanks. I found it a pain to hitch up the truck, disconnect electricity and maybe water, take up jacks, move to the sewage dump, dump and rinse, move back, level, set jacks, reconnect, unhitch. Many better trailer parks have serviced sites with water and sewage hookups which are worth a lot. Those tanks don't last long unless you can re-educate the people to conserve water! Moving probably also means stopping and starting the water heater, and closing and opening the propane valves, although I sometimes bent the rules and skipped that.
That's one reason to prefer a trailer over a motor home, because at least for many short trips you can drive around in the tow vehicle and not have to move the living quarters except maybe to dump sewage. I expect that using the motor home as a runabout could be inconvenient - partly because it is big for a runabout, and partly because of the hookup-leveling-jacks problem at home base. Of course, that's why some people tow a small car behind the motor home, so they can use the car as the runabout. But that has some drawbacks, too.
We had air conditioning in our trailer, and this also included electric heat, as an alternative to starting the gas furnace. I suggest this is MANDATORY if you want summer comfort in the trailer and expect to spend much time inside the trailer during the day. You'd be surprised how hot it can get in there! And I'll bet pop-up trailers seldom have air conditioning, if ever. Of course, you need 110 volt electricity at the campsite for that to work.
Our refrigerator was 3-way: 110 volt, 12 volt, and propane gas. The gas option made it practical to camp in "wilderness" settings with no electricity service. The 12-volt method kept cooling alive while on the highway. It was nice. I don't think 3-way is common, though.
What about pop-ups? (remember I don't know much about them)
Pop-ups should be MUCH easier to tow, giving much less wind resistance. This would save fuel, too. I don't think they could handle climate extremes as well, either cold or hot. I suspect there is more work to set-up and take-down camp. I also suspect they give much less room than the larger cabin trailers.
Maybe this is uninformed bias, but we felt the cabin trailer felt like a small house with almost all the features of a house. I sort of feel like a pop-up trailer would feel more like a fancy tent, rather than a small house. Which is best depends what you want, but for us as we get older I think we'd like the additional features of the cabin trailer. In fact I'd even have trouble selling Colleen on the idea of a cabin trailer again.
A couple of experiences
I remember one trip along the "Red Coat Trail" from Assiniboia to Cypress Hills on a hot summer day when the road was soft and we were facing a headwind. I held that Dodge 360 "pedal to the metal" for hour after hour, and speed varied from maybe 45 to 55 mph depending on the grade and the road surface and the wind. The vacuum gauge was hard at zero. The heat gauge flirted with overheating. The engine worked its heart out. The fuel gauge dropped steadily and quickly. No real problems, except my right foot got tired from trying to "help" the truck along by pushing the pedal hard against the floorboards.
Another time we went to the Black Hills in one day with the pickup and trailer. It reached over 100 Fahrenheit that day. The engine started stuttering and at first we didn't know why, but later figured out the gas line was getting vapour lock. Newer unleaded gas has a lower boiling point. And the gas line ran parallel to the exhaust pipe, which was HOT. A loaded gasoline engine has a MUCH hotter exhaust than a lightly loaded one. (By the way, diesel exhaust is much cooler, that's one reason a diesel burns less fuel, because it extracts more energy out of the fuel) Anyway, with various cooling strategies we got along until near the end when we had a maybe 9-mile grade climbing into the hills, which of course loaded the engine even more and exacerbated the problem. Literally about 50 feet from the crest of the grade the engine stopped completely. We eventually got it going again, and once past the crest it worked fine, but it was not much fun at the end of a long hot day with 2 tired and cranky little kids.
Overall comments
If you are actually traveling lots of miles, either a trailer or a motor home will consume LOTS of fuel and dollars. Also, campsite fees are not negligible. If your average miles per day are high, it may actually be cheaper to stay in hotels.
On the other hand if your average miles per day are low, and if you sometimes have places to park other than campsites, the RV might save some money, and it does give you the freedom to stop many places where there is no hotel, and you never need to pack your clothes into a suitcase!
So a lot depends on how much and how far you expect to move.
Also, of course, it depends what lifestyle you want, whether you enjoy fussing with practical operation of the rig, and so on.
Maxine and Ray could probably give you much more experienced advice than I can give. But you already know that.
Hope this was useful.
(More than I deserve!)
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More advice on another RV:
1994 22' Yellowstone; 460 Ford Capri ; rear double bed; Shower, bathroom, etc. Micro, stove, oven, freezer, fridge; Both front & rear air; Awning; 15 mpg; 140,000 km; Around $24,000
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Here's the great advice I have got so far on the 1994 Yellowstone:
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From Wayne: Re Yellowstone, I have that exact same model, but one year newer. I have had it since brand new and have rented it out under a program with the dealer. Mine has 160,000 km. Considering all the miles I guess it's not bad. Here are the major things that have been done, mostly under warranty; --transmission rebuilt --rear end rebuilt --cracked manifold replaced --several sets of brakes (renters are terribly hard on brakes) --lots of minor stuff that the average guy can do himself.
I get decent performance, but at a price, ... around 10-12 mpg. (460 engine).
The Yellowstone is made in southern States somewhere, and it's not insulated, so not useable in Canada after freezup. Otherwise it's put together OK but not top of the line by any means. It doesn't compare to Travelaire or Triple E for example.
I won't be renting it out this year as we plan to use it ourselves quite a bit, to see if it's still worth keeping. If so, will probably pretty it up inside.
Try to get some repair records. Maybe Ford keeps track. At least then you know what's been done to it, and what may be yet to come. Everybody talks about Ford being the only chassis for a motorhome. That's certainly not been MY experience, and I don't think they're better or worse than any other, but my particular unit has had to have quite a bit of work.
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From Terry:
Too small - if it was us - 22' would give us cabin fever after a week or so - depending on weather, etc.
Check for rot again.
Needs Dash Air - unless you mean front air is dash air - unless you are always going to drive at night.
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From Wayne after I asked him what would be a good price and what about renting:
It's hard to say what to offer because of so many variables. At that age and mileage, it comes down to what condition it's in. If you don't know and have no way of finding out, you need to lowball of course, in order to give you some room for surprises. The best piece of advice I can give you, is DON'T fall in love with any piece of equipment, no matter how pretty. When in doubt, find out what the asking price is, and then make your first offer about 40% below that. Don't be embarrassed, and this is the only way you can find out the true value.
As for renting, it's very expensive depending on your point of view. Depending on the season for my unit it would vary between 1000 and 2000 per week plus, plus. This compares with ownership costs which can be 5 times that much on an ongoing basis. So if you are only planning a single trip you rent; if you are a happy camper all summer in the great white north, and a few months of snowbirding in winter, it pays to sell your house and invest in a King OF THE Road. A lot of people do exactly that for a few years, and some never quit because the lifestyle is very intriguing. (I think everybody should give it a shot before the boomers arrive in full force. Anyway, this isn't much, but good luck.
PS: There is a very good rental outfit based in Calgary that sometimes takes on a client that wants a long term (say a couple months) rental but can't afford the big price tag, and they have a couple older but well cared for units they will rent out a bit cheaper. If you're interested here's their web site: sales@alldrive.com.
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Here's the great advice I have got so far on the 1987 Vanguard:
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From Richard via Jude:
In reply I would say that the common problems are: 1. The exhaust manifolds are prone to crack. (Yes, it has been replaced!) 2. The front suspension is somewhat weak. It should have a steering stabilizer and good quality heavy duty shock absorbers. (Will check it out.) 3. For that age, the tires may be dried out and cracked. The spare and all the road tires should be checked by a tire expert. (I would get new ones with steering treads for the front.) 4. The engine compression should be checked as some 454 engines had valve and valve seal problems. (Ditto) 5. Do a through check of the inside walls and ceiling for any soft spots and stains which would indicate water leaks, and which are very expensive to repair. (Seems like a common problem.. Will stick my finger through the walls & roof.) 6. Check with some dealers and get their opinion on the asking price. (Feedback so far from Dealers has been that it is a good price if it doesn't have any of the above problems.)
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From Bon:
I got your motorhome purchase email and I don't know much about motorized RV's (the motor, rear end etc.) but if you buy this one you gotta have a canopy cause when its raining or too hot you're screwed, then you have to stay indoors and ... censored ... it's just a double bed and you're used to a queen size that will mean ... censored ... So, these items I have mentioned could be the clincher for the sale eh?? Anyway just kidding, but a canopy is a good thing, buy one later if you have to.
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From Anne:
1986 is it rusty? It seems to me that anything in the way of cars after ten years the parts start to go. Is the price right? That's my advice on the purchase.
Did I ever tell you the story of how I found out my husband really and truly loved me? We had rented a motor home and were in Barkerville. He told me not to use the water while he was at the place where you dump. I forgot and flushed the toilet. Unfortunately, he was looking up the pipe, the one that drains at the time.
I don't want to win the contest but we would love to have you come and park in our backyard. You could stay in the house too.
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From Smada Trebor:
You're really doing it! omigod! see my (uninformed) comments i&ib
1986 Vanguard, Class A, 31 feet, 454 Chev V8
a great engine! favorite of dragsters in the muscle car era. Parts and knowledgeable servicing readily available in every little hamlet in North America. like the Chrysler 440 which is also found in many of those things.
61,000 km
that doesn't sound like very much in 16 years but I guess it's not like a car. The miles only get put on once in a while and then it's "ROAD TRIP"
Original Michelin tires
(He suggested I buy 1 new and put it and the never-been-used spare onto the front)
the guy selling it knows what he's talking about!
Black water, grey water, drinking water systems don't get these mixed up! It's like crossing your hands during the operation of the 519 reproducing punch! (been there, done that)
Docking lights
You're going to sail in this thing?
No canopy
Isn't that usually found under the bed? ;^)
(In Saskatchewan it's called a gahzunda.)
Trailer hitch (maybe we buy a VW Beetle)
How about bicycles?
$21,500
Is that Canuckbucks? They don't lose depreciate all that fast do they? How much would it have cost new? When you think of a 16 year old car, they would have lost much more of their initial value.
Any advice would be gratefully appreciated. The winner of this contest gets a three-month visit from us in their driveway! Second prize is 2 months.
How about first prize NO VISIT! to provide some motivation. Just kidding, just kidding. I would rather spend time with you and June than with the finest people on earth.
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From Christine:
ooooh SOoo exciting - Best wishes. I know nothing of RV'ing - but have you heard of CARP, it's a network for the over 50 crowd, they have a website, then there's lemon-aid - review new and used cars, charriots.com also review used cars, hope you enjoy the grand adventure of hunting for your dreams.
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From Rupperpoots and Grace in Sudbury:
(I sent out an email to Rupperpoots in Sudbury with the blue bush stationery. It asked if I could get a picture of Grace in the sauna. Arnie)
"Vawt ta hell are toce looperies toing pye ta site uif ta baitch? "
Translation from Finglish to English: "What the hell are those blueberries doing by the side of the page?"
I koing trying fynet out vutt I ayple too pout you R -Fee, putt I hopen I nutt pee ta vinner for tiss cuntest
(But I need a picture of Grace in the sauna alone.)
I havet vun heksava koot vun, putt tat missus see say, you nutt ayple to see tat till tat tirt munts you koing pee here.
(Maybe you don't have two Finnish flags and the other one is too small but please do try!)
I havet lotsu flaks, spessyally vun bick sunmapits for me, case I kerrit all cited ven I peeing inta sauna! Putt I also vuss pee taken lotsu flak from ta missus cuss see pee so sigh pout tat sekks stuffs. You vuss tinken see lernen vast frum liffing vit me, putt I still keepen on hopen. Pee seeing you rount tiss summer - putt nutt forta tree munts --rite ? - vell maypee only iffen tat you missus Yoon staying here pye herselfs.
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From Maxine:
We do not know a thing about motor homes. Hope someone can help | you. Let us know about the motor home - whether someone thinks it is a good deal.
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From Rick or Mary:
I know nothing about motor homes - but it seems to me, from
growing up in Prince Albert, that both black and gray water are a bad thing!!
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From Dave & Brenda in Whistler:
Arnie: I can park in your driveway?
Dave: We keep it full of snow!
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From Dora :-);-)
Sorry no help from me - only thing I would ask you is "What colour is it?" Isn't that what usually sells a car or van to a woman.
(It's the colour of a poor crop of Spring Wheat at harvest time)
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From Eric:
Have you considered moorage costs? I'm not sure how many marinas there are in Regina, and if they can accomadate a 31 footer.
(Eric, it's an RV not a Recreational Vessel! You've been living near salt water too long! Arnie)
A Chevy 454 with 60,000 km sounds fine. At least it's not a Ford! Can't say I know much about motorhomes, though. I prefer to travel in the fast lane! Those big things driven by Prairie Folk are always clogging up our mountain roads. Happy sailings!
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From Sherry & Arnold:
The rear end and transmission should be checked, and its going to be hard on gas. Other then | that it might be a good buy. But I don't know how you are going to take this abroad....We just came back from Hong Kong did some Xmas shopping. will go again in a couple of years.
(The rear end was replaced because it was 'growling.' The owner worked for Mr. Transmission.)
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From Glen:
Well Arnie.......probably all replies will tell you the 454 is a gas hog. I had one in a Monte Carlo and only got about 7-9 miles to the gallon. Mind you I was 20 at that time and drove the hell out of it. In a motorhome though you need power. Some times its hard to have power and good mileage at the same time. 61,000 km on the motor is nothing. Just really broke in at that mileage.
(It should get 8 mpg at 55 mph but at 70 mph it will get 8 gpm. Arnie)
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From Maxine & Ray:
... Be sure the motor works because that is what will cost you a bundle. Yes, I'm going to get mechanics and Auto Electric to check out everything as a 15 year old can have things ready to go; however, guys who know cars and LOVE 454 Chevies, say it is just broken in at 61km, even tho' it is gas hog! Find out how many litres/100km you will get; most gas motorhomes don't do so well. The owner said, "Don't believe people who say they get 14 mpg. This gets 8 mpg at 55 mph."
(Men lie about two things: their sexual prowess and their gas mileage. I only lie about one.
I just saw a 1993 34' Impulse by Georgie Boy with a Cummins Diesel. The dealer said he got 14 mpg towing a boat going 70 mph from the RV Dealer auction in Vegas. It is great! $200,000 new and he's only asking $70,000. Do you get 14 mpg with your diesel? Arnie)
Check the roof and look REALLY hard for watermarks on the walls and floor. The inside could rot away and you can't tell until it is ready to fall off the studs. Rubber roofs are usually waranteed for 12 years and most last about 20 years unless thay have been damaged by branches etc.
(Good point. My nephew phoned the factory in BC where the Vanguard was made and they said to check for dry rot too. )
Check the maximum loaded weight limit (it will be posted on the door or on a plate on the outside of the body). This is supposed to also include the weight of the VW you intend to tow as well as all your personal stuff. Figure how much you will be overweight (all of us out here on the road are near or slightly over) because you will have a bitch of a time making it up hills and braking going down hills if you are grossly over; not to mention straining your engine & rear-end.
Tires have a shelf life of approximately 5 years whether thay are on the road, parked in your garage, or stored in the Tire Warehouse. If those are the original tires, I would get ALL new ones unless you are planning on being parked in one place most of the time.
(It is not as critical now with steel belted as it was with polyester but I suspect even Michelin Radials aren't too good after 15 years and 61km. )
You can always add a canopy awning.
(Just what I was thinking. )
There may be lots of cupboards but are they usable? Sometimes they are so deep & narrow that they are useless or so high you need a step stool to get to them.
(Yes there a lot of little cupboards up high. )
Keep us posted!
(Talking about "posted," how do you pay your VISA and AMEX? Keep track of the bills and do it on the 'net? Thanks and I'll keep you updated maybe we can form a caravan someday!)
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From Terry:
The biggest concern (hidden) that I have is that of some type of concealed rot. Are there any soft spots on the floor - any spongy places, anywhere on the floor - or wall for that matter - but you usually encounter floor problems. (Perhaps have a pro check it out?) Next biggest problem would be leaks - How often did they have it recaulked? once every 2 years? Keep it under cover?
(I will check it out with a pro. I don't know about caulking but we don't have much rain here so it has not been sitting in the BC rain forest for 15 years.)
454 is the big Chev engine - I think - uses lots of gas - of course on the prairies you give it a push and it travells forever on the flat - right?
We enjoy a canopy - but you can always add one later.
Sounds like a reasonable price - if it is in good condition.
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From Joyce with a comment by Terry:
New tires depend on the condition and wear left - best to use the spare and buy 3 or 5 more - if they match use the spare as one of the duals on the rear.
(We would buy 6 new ones.)
Check each upper corner for spongy/rot.
Consider adding a canopy - they are great - depending where you travel to!
Dash Air is really hard to get along without if you spend time in hot climates - depends on how the two of you handle heat. Dash Air that works well is hard to add to an existing rig. You may be able to use the back/room air with the generator while you are driving - doesn't help the driver much though (believe me - we have done it!)
(It has both dash and back room air.)
Some provincial and state parks do not allow MH's over 25-26 feet - or so they say - many have big spaces that you can stop in anyway - but there may be some restrictions.
Are either of you comfortable driving large vehicles? Have you done it? It bothers some people. I am fine with it, Joyce is OK - but a little cautious, some people just don't like it.
(We took a Winnie to Mexico and back and I love driving one. June is less enthusiastic about but we don't plan to drive long distances -- we hope!)
We love motorhoming - the best way to go - we plan to spend more time doing it - much more. Hope this helps.
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From Maxine & Ray #2
A Cummins Diesel is a very good engine. Yes we get 14 or 15 miles to the gallon but we have a new truck, 30K km and the engine isn't broken in yet so it should do better. We also haven't had to tow through the mountains with it yet, but we got the same kind of mileage with the last truck which had the same engine. You can get diesel fuel all over and it varies whether it is more or less pricey than premium gas.
We are in Mississippi; took in the Mardi Gras parade in Biloxi yesterday and I caught about a pound of beads and some doubloons (didn't have to strip either) but I didn't get any teddy bears. We went to the 'Family Parade' in the morning. Moving to Gibson LA tomorrow. Watching lots of Olympic stuff so it doesn't matter much where we are.
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Revised: February 18, 2002
